SEASON 3: EPISODE 10 TRANSCRIPT

Tori Kelly

Dr. Greg Jones: I want to begin by asking you about your most recent album, which is God Must Really Love Me. Talk about the title of the album and that sense of the songs that really come in a faith-forward way about that sense that God really does love you and us.

Tori Kelly: Yeah. So this album is inspired by a few different things. I started writing it when I was pregnant last year with my son. He's 10 months now. And I was getting inspired. I could sort of hear what I wanted the album to be, but I didn't know what I wanted to say yet. I just knew sonically I wanted it to feel more organic, a lot more live instrumentation, a little more soulful. And so I started writing, but it just didn't feel all the way there yet. I was kind of collecting these songs, but again, it felt like it just wasn't complete. It still didn't feel like I had an album. And so it wasn't until, of course, my son was actually born, because at a certain point I couldn't really even sing. My voice completely changed from being pregnant. So after a while I was like, okay, let me stop trying to force this.: And I just took the break. I had my baby. It went great. He's so beautiful. And of course, he's 10 days old and I just get hit with so much of the album, really like 80% of it. I start recording into my phone different song ideas as I'm holding him. And I've never felt that inspired before. It hit me like a wave. And when I have big feelings, the only place I know is, I mean, one, prayer, that's the place I know to go to, but also to my music, that's my outlet. And so it was just this beautiful thing where it just made sense. I was like, oh, this is what I need to say. I'm going to write about my son. I'm going to write about my faith. I'm going to sing some songs to my husband. So those are the three kind of pillars on the album, I would say.: And to answer your question about the title, I was just driving on my way to a session. I mean, at this point, my son was maybe two months old and I'm driving and the sun is shining, it's in LA and I'm just like, wow, this is such a beautiful day. I'm just feeling this overwhelming sense of gratitude and I'm thinking about my son and I just remember saying out loud like, wow, God, you must really love me. I was just feeling grateful and something about that phrase just felt like embodied, I think this music and what I wanted to hopefully have people feel when they listen to it.

Dr. Greg Jones: I love it. And I want to pick up on something of a paradox because on the one hand, there's this assurance that you have in the song and in the album that God must really love me and that assurance. And yet there's also the song Dive, which you've talked about as the uncertainty of being pregnant. And then, I mean, you don't really know what it's like to be a parent until those first 24 hours. And then you're like, oh my goodness. So talk about the song Dive and the jumble of emotions that go into on the one hand, God must really love me and the joy and the beauty of that and the kind of uncertainty and maybe at moments, at least when I was a new parent terror of really, I'm being entrusted to this newborn? I don't know what I'm doing.

Tori Kelly: Right. Yeah. I just have to give a shout out to my husband because Dive is really me singing to him. I just remember writing it and thinking like, wow, I'm so grateful to have someone in my life like my husband who can just be a teammate where he's my partner. And it's just so great to not have to go through it alone. Every time I would get overwhelmed, I would just look at him and be like, wow, it's so cool that we get to do this together and I'm really not in this by myself. So I was very grateful for that. And yeah, that's really what this song is about is I would get these anxious thoughts of like, wait, what is this going to be like? Because I don't know if you guys are like this, but I just like control. I like to know. Maybe we're all like that.

Dr. Greg Jones: It's challenging when you have a baby.

Tori Kelly: I know, that's the thing. And it's really challenged that in me, because obviously there's so much of it that's out of our control. And I feel like I'm borrowing this human. It's like he belongs to God, he's got his life in his hands and I'm just here to sort of help guide. And I have to constantly remind myself of that because it's so easy to be a little bit like this. And so that's been good for me, good challenge to just let go and let God.

Dr. Greg Jones: Can I take you back to your early days?

Tori Kelly: Yes.

Dr. Greg Jones: Because you started out singing and performing at a pretty early age and there must have been some of that dive spirit that had to carry you forward when you're going through adolescence and you're yet getting on stage and the risk. How did you navigate that as a person with a big dream and then the insecurity that had to be there at times?

Tori Kelly: It was, yeah. I think it's kind of a theme in my life because I've always had the dream to do what I'm doing really, to be a singer, but I was really shy. I feel like I'm still pretty shy or reserved rather.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's hard to imagine because you're such a natural on stage.

Tori Kelly: Well, thanks. Thank you. I love music. I love what I do, but I think everything else that comes with that and presenting yourself and putting yourself out there, it can be scary. I actually think in this age of the internet, because I came up really on YouTube and posting videos on YouTube, I really think that got me out of my comfort zone because I was able to talk directly to the listener. There was just a direct connection rather than the old school way of getting signed to a label and then they do everything and then present you and it's this whole thing. I felt like I could be myself and just sort of put myself out there and still even be shy. And it was accepted. It wasn't like I had to be this other bubbly thing that -: I would often compare myself to other young kids that were just more outgoing and seemed to have that superstar thing. And I just remember being like, wow, am I cut out for this? Because that feels so forced for me. And so to be able to go online to YouTube and then that turned into live streaming, I'm so grateful that I got to build this career and fan base in this organic way because I'm so grateful I didn't feel the need to change anything about myself. And I think it allowed me to just have that confidence that, okay, I can be myself and people will receive it or maybe see something in themselves that they relate to.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful. Both in your writing and in your performing, you're willing to be vulnerable and open and you're kind of like the Psalms that all the emotions are in your music. You mentioned last night that it's not easy to be vulnerable on stage and to share some of those deep feelings and questions and uncertainty. Talk about how you've gotten comfortable with that vulnerability in your music.

Tori Kelly: I don't think comfortable is the right word. I don't know if I'm comfortable. It's still very scary, but there's a brilliant writer, his name's Jimmy Napes, who I did one of my albums with, probably one of my most vulnerable albums because I was going through a really hard time with my family and personal things. And we were writing this song on the piano and we got to this line and it just came out. We were just jamming. It didn't feel official. I just started saying this line and I kind of laughed it off. I was like, "Oh, can you imagine me saying that?" And he was like, "No, you have to say that." And I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not, no." And he said to me, he's like, "When you have that feeling of like, Ooh, this is scary. I don't want to do it." He's like, "That should be a tell that you should say it. That means it's real. That means someone is going to latch onto that or relate to it in some way.": And yeah, it was so uncomfortable for me, but it was such a good lesson for me because I got that same feeling when I wrote the song Bird that's on my latest album. I just am kind of listing every fear that crossed my mind, even if it wasn't... Because I have this tendency of I'll have a fear or some insecurity, but it just kind of floats by and then I'm like, "Oh, but that's Jesus, you got me. I'm good." I kind of answer it too quickly and in songwriting at least, I don't allow myself to really explore that and sit in it for a second, but it's a real feeling. And so Bird is a song I really challenged myself. Even though you know the outcome or you know the correct answers or whatever, really try to just explore that because you might be able to articulate some of these things in an interesting way. So I'm really proud of that song. I've always loved the imagery of birds and wishing I could be a bird essentially. Just look how carefree they are. Look at how God takes care of the birds and he of course takes care of us too. And another fun fact, this is so random, this is just me being a nerd, my name means bird in Japanese.

Dr. Greg Jones: Really?

Tori Kelly: Isn't that so cool?

Dr. Greg Jones: Wow, that is.

Tori Kelly: I learned that very recently. I'm like, why didn't anyone tell me this?

Dr. Greg Jones: That's cool.

Tori Kelly: So yeah, it's just one of those things. I love birds.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's great. Well, what I love is that yes, there is the assurance in the Bible, but at the same time, the most frequently cited passage in the Bible is some version or another of be not afraid because fear is a common experience even for people who are strong in their faith. And sometimes we can pretend like it's not a big deal and to be willing to share that, I think particularly during adolescence and for young people who are trying to figure out identity and other things, to be honest and say, "Yeah, I got fears." And it's hard. I have a friend who said, "Jesus doesn't ever say that there won't be struggle or there won't be fear." He says he'll walk with us through it, but the injunction be not afraid is an acknowledgement that we are an awful lot of the time. St. Augustine has a saying that I've always loved that anyone who sings prays twice because there's both the words and then the music actually touches us at a deeper level.: And I remember after my dad died a long time ago and my mom was really struggling because she was still in her forties when he died. And we were just walking through them all and I was yapping about something. And all of a sudden I realized she was no longer next to me and she was standing about 20 feet behind and just sobbing because coming in over the muzak was a song that my mom and dad had danced to at their wedding. And all of a sudden it was just the music that caused the emotional kind of connection for her that was, it was both painful and beautiful at the same time. So that music, not just the words, which you have a gift for language in your songs, but you also have this incredible breadth of styles of music. I don't know how you describe yourself, but there's a little R&B, there's a little folk, you blend a variety of genres. Talk about how you've grown as a musician and how you think about not the words to the music, but the music and the style and what that conveys to you and what you hope that conveys to listeners.

Tori Kelly: Oh, I love this question because I'm so glad you brought up just the music part of it. No words because it reminded me of, I've talked about this with a good friend of mine. His name's Mattea Sosato. He's an amazing guitar player. And I see some nods, you guys know who that is. Yeah. And we were talking about that and just the aspect of worship and Christian music and just these different categories and what does that actually mean? And I remember us talking about how when he plays, obviously you can't have lyrics when you're playing guitar. And I have cried hearing him play and it's led me into worship sometimes even more so than if we're singing a song that's kind of the more traditional, like we're in church and the words are on the screen. In some ways there's been times where it's just overwhelming hearing him play and I know his heart and it's just, I think the gift of music, it's like sometimes there doesn't need to be words.: Sometimes there are no words to even say and there's a feeling that we can evoke through just melody. So I guess to go to your question about just my style, man, I feel like my style has changed throughout the years, but the one consistent thing I feel like has always been vocals. I feel like whatever genre or whatever the music is doing, my voice I think is hopefully the through line. It sort of gives me permission, I guess, to explore genres because I'm like, okay, I'm a vocalist, this is my sound. I feel like I found my sound as a singer very early on. And my dad played a big role in that because I would start to emulate another singer and he would turn them off and be like, okay, you're starting to sound too much like so-and-so. And then you'd play something else.: So I'm really grateful for that because I had to figure out what do I sound like because I was really good at copying other people. So I feel like that was established at a very young age, but then the next step was like, okay, well, what is the music doing? What's the genre? What's the direction? Even though I was very sure of myself as a vocalist. So I've had so much fun just trying different things. I remember I picked up the guitar when I was about 15 years old and I feel like I sort of faked my way through guitar and just kind of... I only play by ear. I never know what I'm actually playing.

Dr. Greg Jones: Really? That's amazing.

Tori Kelly: I don't know how to read music. I have a lot of respect for people that do. I wish I did. I'm just now learning a little bit of music theory, like the one and the two, the numbers stuff. Yeah, because it's very helpful. It's very hard to tell the band, go to the one, go to the five. Apparently I really like the five. I don't know. But yeah, it's great. You guys are laughing because you're way smarter than me.

Dr. Greg Jones: No, it's because you play the guitar so well, it's hard to imagine.

Tori Kelly: Well, thank you. No, it's all about the ear. I mean, I watched YouTube videos and I really just learned three chords and then the rest, I was like, "Oh, if I do this shape, then that works all over. I could just do the same shapes."

Dr. Greg Jones: Wow.

Tori Kelly: So it was awesome because I always tell young singers to learn an instrument because let me tell you, it has helped so much to just have that in my back pocket and be able to play anywhere and travel. And like I said, I love having a band. I love having singers and the whole shebang, but if you need to, you can always do a show. And my dad's a musician too. He's a bass player, so I'm just grateful that he kind of pushed me to do that. But yeah, as far as my sound, I think I'm just always trying new things. I mean, even now I'd say I'm, I think having a lot of fun in this kind of soulful R&B space. I feel like genres now don't really exist, I feel like, which is great. I think it's kind of cool. We listen to all sorts of things. So I think it's a really exciting time in music right now. Yeah, I'm just excited to be a part of it.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's great. I want to ask you about your song Confetti, which is about you as a teenager. And our students often will say they have a big dream and yet they feel overwhelmed because it's very hard to know how to go from a dream or an imagination or a hope and figure out what the first step is or the next right step. And you write about that and sing about that in that song. And yet you shared that it's also what you think about now, that in some ways that's a song from your younger self to now your young adult self.

Tori Kelly: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Jones: Talk about the song and about dreams and the next step and not getting too preoccupied with what the current moment feels like.

Tori Kelly: Literally last night as I was singing that song, I just kept thinking like, "Wow, I can't believe I wrote this." And I don't say that often about my songs. It really feels like a unique song in my catalog that just kind of follows me everywhere. And I was 18 when I wrote it, and sometimes I look at the words, I'm like, "Geez, what was I? That's so crazy that I was able to articulate this feeling back then." Because it really is about that tension between following your dreams and having this big dream that you can picture it, you can see it, you really want it, but also not relying on that dream happening in order to be happy. And that is something that I still have to remind myself of because even though I've made it and I'm living that dream, I really am and I'm so grateful, but the thing about making it is there's always another layer to that.: There's always another step that you can achieve or another goal. And it's like at what point can you be satisfied and content and happy with where you are in life with or without that achievement? And so back then, I just think it was my way of preaching to myself a little bit and trying to tell myself like, "Hey, even you can dream and you can reach for the stars and do all of that, but don't forget that that's not the end all be all. Even if you get there, make sure your soul is good. Make sure you're good with or without that." And so it reminds me of my identity every time I sing it. It reminds me of just what really matters, what's important, relationships and what God says about me rather than what people say about me. There's so many layers in that song that are just so cool.: Yeah, it's just about not waiting for that sort of big moment. And even in my career, I've had so many amazing things happen. It still was never that confetti drop moment, like overnight thing. And in a lot of ways, I'm kind of grateful for that, that it's been this kind of slow grind of just learning, taking my time. Nothing has been too fast where I'm overwhelmed and it's cool to have that.

Dr. Greg Jones: What I love about the song and what you described is that sometimes we think if I just get that dream accomplished, then everything's going to be there. You can't just live for the dream. You talk about relationships and they matter a lot to you. What's the kind of community that helps keep you centered?

Tori Kelly: I love that. Yeah, I really value the people in my life. My circle's pretty small. I think it always has been even before things kind of started happening for me in my career. But I have one best friend who I've known since birth. We're like six months apart. Our dads were best friends in junior high. We were best friends and now we both have sons. She just had a baby as well, and they're the exact same age apart as we are. So it's very cool and very -

Dr. Greg Jones: I think they're destined to be good friends.

Tori Kelly: I think so. We're going to force them. We're going to force them to be friends, so they have no choice. But yeah, she's just been an amazing friend. She's been through so much. She's someone who has inspired me because she's been through so much grief and losing her husband at a really young age. She's since now remarried with a baby, but she's just taught me so much about strength. And so we've been through a lot together and she's just somebody that's just amazing, an amazing person that I have in my life. And then my family, of course, they've always been there. They've been a huge part of my career and walking alongside me. I was signed as a 12-year-old.: So if you can imagine as a parent, they of course wanted to be there and make sure I was good. And so I'm really grateful for them. And then also I gave them a shout already, but my husband, I mean, he has such a presence when he walks into a room and he feels very trustworthy. He's a very large person, so right away you just notice him. Basketball player. He's a basketball player. Yeah. He's a very tall guy. My son, I'm very scared for how tall. I can barely hold him already. He's 10 months and I'm just like, I'm tired. But yeah, my husband is, gosh, there's so much to say about him. I think what people maybe don't realize is he has been around really since my first album. My first album came out in 2015 and then we started dating in 2015. So that was kind of a crazy year for me. But yeah, so he's seen... I was already doing stuff before that time, but he has really been this steady person I can bounce things off of. And I'm very, very grateful for just the people in my life.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's great. You have this beautiful song, and last night you had the whole audience singing You're Never Alone. Yes. Talk about the song, what it means to think, because we live in a time where there's a lot of loneliness and a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear, and that song has a way of connecting you and reminding us that when we're at our best, there's a community and a connection. Talk about that song and its role in both your music and in your life and what you hope it conveys to others.

Tori Kelly: Yeah. I kind of love this segue because we're just talking about really great relationships in our lives and all that's amazing. We need good people in our lives. We're not doing this life alone. But why I love that song, Never Alone, it was on my gospel album in 2018, and it's the first song that Kirk Franklin and I wrote together. But yeah, so I have these great people in my life, but the truth is no one's perfect. So even if you have these great relationships, my husband, my best friend, whatever, they're not going to be everything I need. They're not going to get it right all the time. They're going to cause hurt sometimes. I'm going to cause hurt sometimes. And so a song like Never Alone, it's a reminder to me that no matter what, Jesus is the constant. That's the relationship that doesn't waver.: And so that is really the message of that song that I wanted to share, which just no matter what you're going through, you never, ever, ever have to feel alone. He is there no matter what. We talked about in the beginning, through all those struggles, he's walking in that with you and you don't have to get through it and then go to him. He's there meeting you where you're at. Yeah, it's a great reminder because even when I think of an amazing relationship like my husband, I can be tempted sometimes to put him too high or put a friend too high where it's like, oh, let me go to you and just dump all my emotions onto you and you'll understand me and I just want to be understood. And then maybe they'll kind of understand, but it's not the same as going to God with those things and really just pouring all of that out to Him.

Dr. Greg Jones: You have a lot of wisdom. What would you want to be sure that people who listen to your music and come to your concerts and engage you, what's the message that you really hope people can take with them for their life that you want to communicate through your life and through your music?

Tori Kelly: That's a big question, man. I think talking about the emotions that I write about in my songs, I'm a Jesus lover, but I'm not necessarily only writing songs about Jesus all the time. I'm kind of writing about everything, life. And so I feel like if you come to a show of mine, I'd want it to feel like a very full experience. I would hope that one of the songs that I sing, maybe you're drawn to or you can connect to and maybe you get a sense of like, oh, I'm really not alone in this or look at all these other people singing. One of my favorite things about concerts is looking out and I almost feel like it's not really about me and I'm facilitating this experience for other people because it's the best. There's specific fans that I have in mind where they've written me. They've been friends for 10 plus years and they met at my show. One of them came and met this other girl and in the parking lot, they fully prayed for her and she gave her life to Jesus in the parking lot at my show.

Dr. Greg Jones: Wow.

Tori Kelly: They were able to take something I said or a song that I was singing and that kind of... I just thought that's so cool because it wasn't even me that said anything super explicit necessarily at the time. There wasn't an altar call at the show or anything, but that I think is of course the ultimate goal that people would see Christ through me and make these relationships and have the conversations. And I just want to be a facilitator. I want to just share my heart, leave it on stage, and then I feel like God can do the rest. But yeah, that's one of my favorite parts about it is just the community that it creates literally apart from me, I think is so awesome.

Dr. Greg Jones: Well, that's a beautiful description. And I think in a time when it's easy, as I said, at the beginning to be on our heels and to, you know, so many reasons for division and disagreement out there, you have a way of bringing people together. I hope so. Thank you. And you give a sense of hope and joy and what it means to have an integrated life. And I think that's what all of us are yearning for. So thank you for the gift of your music and all that you do and are. Would you join me in thanking Tori Kelly?

Tori Kelly: Thank you so much, you guys. It was so great. Thank you. Thank you guys.