SEASON 3: EPISODE 7 TRANSCRIPT

Debbie Carroll

Debbie Carroll: There have been people that have said to me, "I'm not sure mental health works because look at what's going on. " And of that I respond, "That just motivates me to do more." I'm not giving up. There's a lot of work to be done and yet I also believe that most in the world are feeling that too. And so how do we dig deeper and collaboratively change what's happening today?

Dr. Greg Jones: Behind the music that moves us and the performances that inspire us are people carrying unseen burdens. Hope invites us to look beyond the spotlight and recognize the humanity, vulnerability, and need for care that exists in every creative life. When we create cultures of compassion and support, hope becomes a force for healing and lasting change. My name is Dr. Greg Jones, president of Belmont University, and I'm honored to be your guide through candid conversations with amazing agents of hope, people who demonstrate what it means to live with hope and lean into the lessons picked up along the way. They are the hope people.

Today's Agent of Hope is Debbie Carroll, a longtime advocate for mental health in the music and entertainment industry. With more than three decades of experience supporting creatives, Debbie's journey began with a background in psychology and social work and led her to MusiCares, an organization founded in response to the profound vulnerabilities artists often face behind the scenes. In our conversation, Debbie shares the unique mental health challenges of creative professions from isolation and burnout to stigma and lack of access to care and how her work has evolved from crisis response to prevention and culture change. Now, leading the Center for Mental Health and Entertainment at Belmont, Debbie reflects on the power of community, the importance of boundaries and mentorship, and the growing role artists play in normalizing vulnerability. Her story reminds us that hope grows strongest when healing happens together. Talk a little bit about the distinctive character of caring for people in the music industry and performers, creatives, because there's a lot of opportunity and challenges that come with that really unique set of skills and gifts.

Debbie Carroll: There really is. I was thinking about this earlier in the week. When I first started, I was of the notion that we're all humans, we should all be treated equally, which there is something to be said for that. We all have a desire to be seen, valued, and heard. And yet the industry, I quickly learned they have significant occupational hazards that other industries don't have. And as I mentioned, that safety net that they don't have benefits like health insurance or disability or time off. And so we found too that when somebody in the industry hit what I call those potholes in life that we all hit, that they didn't have a place to turn for support. So our programs were developed out of that notion of how do we support this unique population that again, gives so much joy to the world and help ensure that they can get through those times and continue their crafts.

And that's not only artists, but also the people around them. The industry is not known for its health. I'll just be completely blunt. I've been working on that for almost three decades now. And somebody was even mentioning this this week that those working in music also know that they're going to work long grueling hours and boundaries are not necessarily always respected and that if they're not willing to do that, there might be somebody else right behind them that would. And so helping to change some of that culture around just the occupational hazards that music and people face to then create a healthier industry, which can then permeate into the world at large. Creatives are some of the most giving people that I've ever met. I quickly realized that too. Their craft is so much more personal than it is for the rest of the world. I mean, we do our jobs and it's richly personal, but yet it's not what defines us per se. So again, having a place or places that they can go to get support during times of need is so incredibly important.

Dr. Greg Jones: Yeah. It's a great joy to have you now as a colleague at Belmont. I'd love for you to take me on a journey of how you got involved in the entertainment industry and serving it.

Debbie Carroll: I received an undergraduate degree in psychology. At that point in time, most people, when they got an undergraduate degree they knew exactly what they wanted to do and I didn't, yet I was intrigued by humans and their stories. And so I worked at a variety of different facilities in Colorado and then in Rhode Island, moved to Atlanta and then decided that I really wanted to go to graduate school to get a degree of some sort that I could be a counselor and got a master's degree in social work and moved back to Nashville and was in a private practice for a period of time and had very young children at home and found that counseling work was amazing, yet I was not at a place where I had great boundaries or could separate between the person in front of me, their angst, and not take that home with me.

Somebody told me about an organization called MusiCares and I said, "Don't want to work for a charity. I don't want to travel and I don't think I want to work full-time." But I sent a resume and then went to the first interview and became absolutely intrigued with the notion of an organization that supported their own in such a profound way. It was very much in infant stages at that point in time, but a group of artists and music industry executives had gotten together after Woody Herman died virtually homeless and alone and said, "This is a tragedy. We need to provide some type of safety net for the industry." And hence that was MusicCare's inception. And MusiCares was supported by the Recording Academy, the Grammy Awards. So they supported 100% of the operating expenses. So everything that was raised went to programs and services. So fortunately they hired me and I spent close to 24 years there and was able to oversee our programs and services nationwide and serving this population of amazing humans that give so much to the world through their crafts and talents was a tremendous blessing. So that's how I stumbled into the music industry.

Dr. Greg Jones: What have you learned that surprised you the most over these three decades that you've been involved in caring for people in the industry?

Debbie Carroll: Oh goodness. There's so much that I've learned. I think with individuals and creatives in the industry, some of the main lessons that I've learned is that everybody, I mean, I think most of us know this, but every individual is carrying a unique set of circumstances and challenges and that mental health in general is not an exact science and that it is very individualized and that some people may given their background, their personality, et cetera, may deal with a level of fame in a different way than the next person. And one of the things with creatives too, and those particularly on the public platform, is that all eyes are upon them. And so they can't walk into their therapist's office in the same way that I can because there'll be judgment and there's a lot of work to be done in that regard. It should be celebrated that somebody's going to see a therapist versus any type of shame associated with that.

Some people also have garner a level of success and I use that term loosely, but then they realize that I've worked so hard for this for so long and this is as good as it gets. And why am I feeling so horrible? There's a tremendous amount of isolation being an artist that's well known. Also, only about 1% of the population will ever achieve that level of success that they become a household name. And of that, like a quarter of those folks will be a superstar, which I define that as other genres and other entities know their work. So it's a tough, tough road. Also the level of tenacity that creatives have to keep doing what they're doing. I've often said along the way that my ego is way too fragile. There was no way that I would've ever survived. So therefore being on the peripheral and being there to help support is probably more in my wheelhouse than anything else.

Dr. Greg Jones: When you said that sometimes they achieve success and then say, "Is that all there is? " Reminds me when I had Ben Zobrist on the Hope People podcast who won the World Series with the Chicago Cubs and was named MVP of the World Series and he sunk into a deep depression because he'd now achieved everything that was possible to achieve in the game of baseball and it just felt so empty to him and kind of having to recalibrate and recenter in that sense. I thought there's a lot of similarities between athletes and musicians in terms of that performance pressure and yet you think you know what you're going to achieve and then you get there and it's kind of like, "Is this all there is? " And that can be as challenging as actually struggling with not quite getting everything you want. What's giving you the greatest hope as you think about the landscape now and what is happening that people are talking about it more so that there's perhaps a slight reduction in the shame factor, though it's still a big issue, but what's really giving you hope as you look at the landscape of caring for others?

Debbie Carroll: I tend to be a fairly optimistic person. I know optimism does not equate to hope, but yet I think when I look at the human resiliency and the amount of struggle that the human spirit can hold and the ability to get through that, that gives me hope. This new center, people paying attention and prioritizing communities that need a little extra support certainly gives me hope. I feel like the definition for me, because I've thought about this a lot knowing that we were going to be talking today about hope is that being positive or knowing that regardless of the outcomes, things will be okay. And I do believe one of the things that is constant in our world is change and that if you wait long enough or pause long enough or get quiet enough that there can be silver linings even in some of the most darkest times. And so being centered in your spirituality or your faith and knowing that this too shall change or this too shall pass if you're in a really dark time. Hope I feel like is everywhere and when I lose my sense of hope, it's in the quiet moments that I really get it back where I'm able to pause and really listen.

Dr. Greg Jones: Yeah, that's beautiful. You've navigated three decades of being a social worker and counselor on the one hand and yet an embedded industry veteran in a fast moving, highly pressurized environment. And when I talk to songwriters, they talk about the number of rejections that come and Ashley Gorley will talk about the thousands of songs that he's written and people focus on the 80 plus number ones, but he's thinking also about all the ones he loved that didn't get there. That pressure of the industry, it's a unique business that has a lot of fraughtness built in and you navigated both of those worlds as an industry veteran and yet as someone who was focused on care. How has that been for you and what does it mean now to try to bring some of that together and work with the industry to provide a more hopeful and integrative approach?

Debbie Carroll: The positions that I've held in the industry, I've been fortunate to be in a supportive role. I've witnessed the stress and the grind of folks that are creating music and then we, and I say we because it certainly has been a group effort with all of the organizations I've worked with, walk alongside these individuals to help them clear the runway of life to achieve what they're trying to achieve. And so I feel like it was a tremendous gift that I was able to even embark upon a career in music. Again, if somebody had told me in undergraduate school, "You're going to be working in music," I would've laughed and said, "Really? I don't think so." So it's a distinct honor and privilege to be able to support people in their times of need. And now with this new center, I'm so excited about not only continually supporting the industry at large, but also educating the future leaders in music and those embarking upon a career around emotional resiliency, giving them a thumbnail sketch of what the industry may look like so then they're better prepared to navigate it.

And hopefully with those skills, they can change culture, which I mean, I'm thinking very broadly, but I think that that's certainly something that could be achievable. And then in combination with the foundation of research to really then inform programs that we'll be offering not only to students, but to the community at large and also help others inform programs about how to support this unique population is so exciting. And so I feel like the combination of all of my work prior to this position at Belmont has really culminated in this perfect storm, so to speak, to step into this role to create additional support and support that will live in perpetuity long after I'm gone to create a different landscape for entertainment as a whole, which could be artists, athletes, film, whatever the case may be in terms of entertainment.

Dr. Greg Jones: I love the way you described the importance of culture change and not just crisis response. At what point did you begin to realize that we needed to focus more on culture change and look at that broader landscape rather than just the kind of crisis response or the kind of one by one care for individuals?

Debbie Carroll: I mean, certainly in the early days at MusiCares, we were focused on crisis response and the organization as a whole got together and said, "We need to do something that's much more proactive." And some of that has been somewhat like pushing a boulder uphill because it can be more challenging to address and focus on prevention than it is on crisis and responding to the issues at hand. Yet I feel like when I look back historically that there has been tremendous progress, there's a lot of work to be done, but I often said in my latter years at MusiCares that wouldn't it be a wonderful world if we got to the point where MusiCares is no longer needed, that the industry was paid a fair wage and that the boundaries and culture was such that it supported artists whatever life threw at them and that MusiCares was no longer needed. So I do think that prevention piece is what will help again create a different culture and move in a different direction than just constantly responding to a crisis and not fixing the problem at hand. If anything, constantly responding to a crisis just enables the poor behavior because then it provides support to then get through it, but it doesn't do anything to really address the problem. So I feel like that's why prevention is so incredibly important.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's great. I want to ask you about the emergence of some songs like Jelly Roll and Ashley Gorley singing “I'm Not Okay,” and how that's helping kind of bring to light an acknowledgement that it's not always good the reality of that. How is that changing the landscape that you see in entertainment and how will that help the Center for Mental Health and Entertainment?

Debbie Carroll: I mean, I think it's significantly changing the landscape. I love watching Jelly perform that song and watching the audience and how it resonates with them. When I was with Onsite, we went with Jelly to the prison here in Nashville and he performed that to the prisoners and I was like, It was so moving. I'm actually feeling it now as we're talking about it. It gives people permission to own the shadow parts or the hard parts. And I feel like we all experience sucker punches in this life or potholes. We trip over potholes and that it's in those moments where we connect with another human or we connect with a song that can help us heal those moments and also make us feel like we're not alone and that this is part of the human experience and that we're not unique in that struggle. And so when artists like Jelly and Ashley take a stand or create a song that resonates with the population as a whole, it gives other people permission to say he's vulnerable and being vulnerable.

I think that's part of Jelly's overall just the unique attraction that he brings to this world is he's so uniquely him and he talks about his flaws and his past without any kind of hesitation. And then it allows others to say, "If he's done that, I can do that too."And so that's where I also think music can play a huge part in shifting culture in the mental health space and otherwise when they're willing to talk about it, which more and more people are in their own struggles, that gives other people the willingness to do the same. It's vulnerability is power as Brene Brown says. And it certainly is where you're able to, again, release some of that shame and fear around, "I'm showing the most human side of me, which is in my pain and suffering” and that whomever you're sharing it with can say, “I see you, I still love you, I still care about you and thank you for sharing that. I too have had similar feelings.” It just connects us all in a very beautiful way.

Dr. Greg Jones: Yeah, that's really powerful. I remember early on going to the Porter's Call Evening of Stories and hearing these really accomplished performers and artists talking about struggles. I think it was my second year of going that Lady A came out and talked about marriage difficulties. I'm thinking, "You got it all. " And yet the honesty was really, really powerful and that's been helpful for a lot of people, especially I hope young people to realize and I love Al Andrew's image of prehab because you got to move upstream and not wait till you hit the rocks and are trying to recover, but be aware of some of the potential pitfalls that are going to come along the way. We're thrilled that you've joined us at Belmont to lead the new Center for Mental Health and Entertainment. What drew you to the role and what excites you about it?

Debbie Carroll: So much. That's such a layered question, but so much drew me to this role and I'm so excited about all of it. I'll say that I think at my age I know more about what I don't want to do than versus what I do want to do that's narrowed a little bit. And so when I was asked to join the advisory committee around the center, I thought, wow, this is fascinating and fabulous that Belmont is taking a stand in this regard and considering executing something that no one's ever done before and bridging the education piece with the community at large and that perfect pairing being right at the end of Music Row. So I'm excited to be at the helm to develop something that again, will help and impact this community and students and hopefully even be broader where my hope is that eventually other entities will emulate what Belmont is doing and prioritizing to then further the impact of this work and that I think very broadly that eventually, again, that can shift culture in a very profound way where the industry is stronger and healthier, which just allows people to create more beautiful music for all of us to enjoy. So I'm excited about all of it and just thrilled to be here.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's wonderful. One of the things I love about both your experience and your style of leadership is that you're a catalyst. You've had experience at MusiCares at Onsite, you're trusted and you've got great relationships and I hope that the center's going to be a catalyst that doesn't just create one more organization but can actually bring things together to really help to cultivate that culture change. How do you see building those relationships to really find the synergies that can help do that culture change and perhaps create a movement where there's a lot less need for the language and the attention because it becomes much more just part of the culture to care for one another and care for ourselves.

Debbie Carroll: That's so important. And the energy around the center, I had hoped that people would be excited about it, but I didn't realize exactly how excited people were. Somebody called me after the announcement and said, "Are you overwhelmed?" I said, "Yes, I'm appropriately overwhelmed and so excited." So I feel like this is a pivotal moment in the world. The world is heavy and a younger demographic is actually mandating that mental health is woven into their culture. And so I feel like it's a great time to embark upon this center because the momentum is there and the excitement is there. And my relationships are primarily within the music community, but my hope is that this center will garner the attention of the healthcare industry and beyond because again, there's a lot to be learned from the center, not only for this population, but think about if you could emulate it for another population that's in need.

And so I believe that healing happens in community and impact is a community effort as well. And so I hope to leverage the music industry relationships that are local, but also around the country and beyond to really utilize the center as a platform to talk about, here's what we're doing, you could maybe do the same or here's the impact that it's provided, et cetera. So more people take notice and are interested in joining this or something similar.

Dr. Greg Jones: It's a big task just to focus on entertainment. I mentioned earlier sports and the connections there. I also think about the military and the pressures and the kind of dislocation of family and those sorts of dynamics that there are lots of analogies that really need to be addressed because a lot of people are carrying around a lot of pain and sometimes ends up in tragic circumstances.

Debbie Carroll: That is so true. The suicide statistics of late are staggering and heartbreaking in my opinion. And so there is so much work to be done and I think given those incredible tragedies that I know have affected my life personally and certainly professionally drive me and motivate me to do even more, to dig my heels in further and to reach farther and to address this epidemic of sorts that's in our world today to change that. There have been people that have said to me, "I'm not sure mental health works because look at what's going on." And of that, I respond, that just motivates me to do more. I'm not giving up. There's a lot of work to be done and yet I also believe that most in the world are feeling that too. And so how do we dig deeper and collaboratively change what's happening today?

Dr. Greg Jones: I love your image that healing happens in the community. How's your own faith affecting that sense of helping others and accompanying others to rediscover a sense of hope and goodness in life?

Debbie Carroll: My faith is strong and that's developed over time and I feel like my relationship with God is a very positive one and I rely upon God often with the work that I'm doing. Sometimes I think, "Wow, this is my why." And I didn't know that when I was younger. And so I feel richly blessed to have been in the spaces that I've been in and I do know that God has guided a lot of that. And I think faith is so center to hope in general and believing that, as you mentioned, when you're walking through fire, there will be light at some point. You may not know when or how or how that's going to be, but also I think that having somebody help say, "I see you're on the ground, take my hand and I'll walk with you. I can't walk for you, but I can walk with you and stand next to you." It's so important.

Dr. Greg Jones: It's beautiful. You talked earlier about part of the attraction of coming here to work with students and to work with people as they begin their journey into the entertainment industry and music in particular. What advice as we close would you want to offer to a student who's just beginning to imagine that they want to work in one or another aspect of the entertainment industry?

Debbie Carroll: That's a really great question. I think I would like to say to stay curious, to stay open, to enjoy every moment because the entertainment industry is a tremendous amount of fun. Stay firm with your boundaries around get to know yourself and what your capacities are and what you're willing to tolerate and what you aren't and find mentors that can help support that for you, find somebody that you can talk to when times get tough or there's a struggle that you're not certain how to navigate and to find a group of people that know you for who you are outside of the industry so they can also provide you with feedback around blind spots that you might not be aware of. But I would also just say enjoy it. It is a beautiful, beautiful industry to be in and it's an honor and a privilege to work amongst this industry that feels like family. I mean, immediately when I joined MusiCares, it felt like family. And so I would say enjoy every moment.

Dr. Greg Jones: Thank you for participating in this conversation with the Hope People. Our aim is to inspire you to become an agent of hope yourself and to help us cultivate a sense of wellbeing for all. To join our mission and learn more about this show, visit the hopepeoplepodcast.com. If you enjoyed this conversation, remember to rate and review wherever you get your audio content.